Eric and all,

I am enjoying this thread as I am the others. I don't know how much you want to dive into any of the examples you use Eric. You're referencing some of my favorite sonnets as you move along here. So if you want to hold off on actually discussing classic sonnets for this stage of the course, I'll hold back. I think you know one of my all time favorite poems is Milton's "On the Latte Massacre in Piedmont." I really hope we get to discuss that poem some day --- it is so wonderful even though it deliberately breaks the rules many times over within its structure. The Milton poem you site here, "When I consider How My Light is Spent," is also a classic.

You wrote: "In the octet, Milton observes that he is finding himself going blind, before he is well into his middle years.  Known to be a devout man, he wonders, will his God expect the same labours and fruits of him, denied the light by which to work?"  I think " that one talent which is death to hide" alludes to the parable of the talents (Matthew, 14-20). That's what I had in my notes 30 years ago, anyway LOL.  I've always thought Milton was referring to his own writing and not just his sight. This poem also is one enjambment on top of another. The speed and rhythm of this sonnet always amazed me as well. Of course, that last line just overwhelms me every time I read it..."They also serve who only stand and wait."

Anyway, to what extent do you want us to get into the poems you are offering up as examples to learn from?

Thanks for all you are providing here, Eric.  I think we all share a sense of gratitude for the time and effort you are giving us as novices in all this.

Norm

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If it will be any help (and I sure hope Eric can elaborate on this!), it says here that the turn is "the dramatic and climactic  center of the poem, the place where the intellectual or emotional method of release first becomes clear and possible."   

Actually I think this even says it better, but for some reason, I still would like it even more clear:   

"The standard way of constructing a Petrarchan sonnet is to project the subject in the first quatrain; to develop or complicate it in the second; then to execute, at the beginning of the sestet, the turn which will open up for solution the problem advanced by the octave, or which will ease the load of idea or emotion borne by the octave, or which will release the pressure accumulated in the octave."   

Wouldn't that mean that the solution in Browning's would be when she comes up with the idea to stay on earth (middle of line nine that Eric pointed out)--is that the turn?

~Yvonne

That wasn't a bump, that was what this thread is for...questions.  (And I'd never boot you for pointing out that I made a mistake.  Preferring Hold'em to 7-card Stud, though...that's just wrong!)

As to the offered rhyme-schemes for the sestet...the ones you mention are the ones I offered, just using the letter 'c' (which I'd skipped) as a designator.  (in other words, if you take all the rhyme-schemes I gave for the sestet and move them down 1 letter, you'd get the ones you just gave...I think.  It's early, I haven't had my coffee and my meds haven't kicked in yet.)  There's also cdeedc, by the way.

It's not that the rhyme-scheme doesn't matter, so much as that (so long as they're understandable) it doesn't really matter what letters are used to designate them.  I had a brainfart and skipped c...but c hadn't really been defined as anything but "not a or b"...you see?

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I've made an error in handing you the rhymes for the sestet...though it actually doesn't matter, in reality.  I began the sestet rhymes with 'd' and left out 'c' entirely (brainfart).  

The reason it makes no difference is simply this...the two (or three) rhymes for the sestet are rhymes not present in the octet, so it really doesn't matter what letters are used so long as they are not 'a' or 'b'...so dedede would actually (pre-brainfart) be the same thing as cdcdcd and defdef would be the same as cdecde...et cetera. (I hate it when I confuse the issue this way!)

Octave is the musical term and often applied to poetry...they are interchangeable.  Additionally, sestet can be rendered sextet.  It hasn't been my day...I see that above I've rendered it septet, which is incorrect, and I'm going up to change it, thanks.  A septet would be of SEVEN lines.

I'll be getting into enjambment at a later time, but to put it shortly, a line can be a complete thought, in which case it is called an 'end-stop' or the thought can continue into the next line and stop midline, which is called an enjambed phrase or referred to as 'enjambment'.

In this example of Milton's work, the exact location of the volta is a matter of perception.  I see it as occuring at the word 'but'...which is the word that changes the direction of thought by its very definition.  Clearly, the author of your book sees it differently.

(I'm right.   )


PS.  Don't rely on dictionaries for the meaning of poetic terms; lexicographers are seldom students of poetry and even less often poets.

There is  a handy Glossary of Poetic Terms at http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/display_rpo/poetterm.cfm

Conveniently enough, alphabetically, you will find "enjambment" listed immediately after "End-stopped".

The things that differentiate the styles of sonnets from each other are 
1) Stanzaic formation
and 
2) Rhyme Scheme.

The Petrachan sonnet is formed of two stanzas...an octet (eight lines) and a sestet (six lines).  The octet always has the rhyme scheme abbaabba...the sestet may be defdef, ddeeff, dedeff or possibly a couple of other options I've forgotten.

Additionally, in the Petrarchan sonnet, traditionally there is a dilema presented in the octet with a solution suggested in the sestet.   This style was developed by Francesco Petrarch in the Fourteenth Century, writing in Italian, and favored in English by John Milton, Elizabeth Barrett Browning and others.

It's been suggested in texts that Milton did not employ the traditional problem/solution volta, but it's my opinion that this is the result of careless reading on the part of people who may study poetry and try to teach about it, but don't actually write it.  We can see a distinct volta midline of the final line of the octet in, for example, my personal favorite of Milton's works, Sonnet XIX

When I consider how my light is spent,
Ere half my days, in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He returning chide,
"Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; But patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies "God doth not need
Either man's work or his own gifts. Who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly: thousands at His bidding speed
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."

In the octet, Milton observes that he is finding himself going blind, before he is well into his middle years.  Known to be a devout man, he wonders, will his God expect the same labours and fruits of him, denied the light by which to work?

In the middle of L8, there is a distinct volta, as he changes voice and allows himself to be answered by the Personification of the virtue, Patience, that God does not NEED his labours, only his willingness to perform them.

In a less devout mode, Elizabeth Barrett Browning offers another example in Sonnet XXII of her Sonnets from the Portugese.  (The title is not indicative of the works having been translated; Elizabeth was of a mildly swarthy complexion, and her husband, Robert Browning, gave her the nickname "My Little Portugese".)

You may recognize this as the poem chosen by Jennifer Cavileri for her wedding vows in Erich Segal's "Love Story":

When our two souls stand up erect and strong,
Face to face, silent, drawing nigh and nigher,
Until the lengthening wings break into fire
At either curved point,--what bitter wrong
Can the earth do to us, that we should not long
Be here contented ? Think. In mounting higher,
The angels would press on us and aspire
To drop some golden orb of perfect song
Into our deep, dear silence. Let us stay
Rather on earth, Beloved,--where the unfit
Contrarious moods of men recoil away
And isolate pure spirits, and permit
A place to stand and love in for a day,
With darkness and the death-hour rounding it.

In the octet, she offers the suggestion that their love is so complete in itself that, should they rise to heavenly heights, the angels' song would actually be an intrusion!  Mid line 9, she resolves this plaint and tells her love "Let us stay rather on earth" where the 'contrarious moods' of men tend to recoil from such pure spirits, leaving them in sweet isolation.

Before I give out an assignment regarding the Petrarchan, any questions, anyone?  Use this thread.